Heaven Can Wait

If you want to read up on how different religions effect perceptions of the afterlife in NDE's there are a few books I would recommend by P.M.H. Atwater. She has studied NDE's in a variety of cultures and ages...most of her research is NDE's in children. Even with religious differences many of the experiences are very similar even as to how they describe it...but they use terms based on their culture/religion.

i understood the tunnel could be an effect of loss of blood to the eyes (as you lose blood from the outside of the eye first is often creates a tunnel-ish effect) and if you think you are going to meet up with the people you lossed it is understandable that you may "see" them during the final moments.... but are there other interesting commonalities which stretch across cultures?

There are more than one type of NDE. My last is considered a transcendent NDE which means to merge with the light... There are several commonalities between the different types of NDE across the religions/cultures. Frankly I didn't know there were different categories of NDE's until I had that one. I was not greeted in the tunnel-I went into the light. (look at the types of NDE's)

I had a close call at 12. I was being choked...I could agree that what I experienced in that close call could have been what you described above as loss of blood to the eyes etc...but not the one I had at 36. I know two other people who have had the same experience as I did...even though they were explaining theirs...it was so similar to mine. One died from chemo and the other one drown. One was the same religion/culture the other was not.

I don't expect anyone to believe...especially if they have not experienced that...and if science can explain it...please do. But they certainly have more than just tunnels to explain.

I'm not the type of person who says..."absolutely" anything. Nor do I try and get people to believe as I do. I'm not superstitious/all that religious...etc. My parents are atheist.

If you are interested in NDE's just read up on them. I will not debate it if you are skeptical...your perspective can and will be different than mine.

i have had a few close calls myself, yet in the back of my mind I am also am aware of how much the brain is in control of our perception. It makes me wonder how the brain functions the way it does. Is the brain a necessary, yet temporary conduit; or is it that the brain by itself is what produces sensation(s), perception, and consciousness? -The brain can produce alteration of sensation (by natural and not-so-natural drugs and brain chemicals ) and of consciousness, yet how such perception is created from neural algorithms in the brain is still not understood. It is all very interesting. Yet, there is a problem about how one goes about testing it... but here is a cool related article.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741

seeded on newvine here: http://gozounlimited.newsvine.com/_news/2009/10/10/3369568-is-this-your-brain-on-god

I have read up on many of these subjects and with an open mind. We know why the brain sends signals to our hands, organs etc...but why does it have a spot for "God consciousness" if it were not to be used for a specific reason? Just so we can believe in a deity/afterlife/soul? Our DNA wants us to believe? Our brain wants to ease death transition into nothingness by showing us a "heaven" like state just to take it away afterward...Ah sorry no God just blackness now...like having one last orgasm? Science believes there is a reason/purpose for it...but until they discover it...it is an unknown. So like science...I draw a hypothesis upon my own observations...and yet do not know how to begin to test it...or prove it to anyone.

I can tell you that it is very hard for me to want to be alive after that experience...and that is very common for transcendent NDE's across the board. No matter what the perceptions of death/religion/culture had on the person before.

For more info P.M.H. Atwater has the classifications and the different types of experiences in her website. I can't link until I get my old account restored other wise I would.

You may perceive it as a brain malfunction due to death...and I perceive it to be a brain function (maybe the last function, but a function none-the-less).

If your death is really abrupt, then you probably won't have the experience, (unless you live on afterwards in some way of course ).. and I probably wouldn't call it a "God consciousness" as people who believe in things other than god can also have religious experiences. ( I have heard that some of the more atheistic Buddhists can also experience what we usually refer to as a spiritual* state (*maybe spiritual isn't the right word for those who are more atheistic (Not all Buddhists are atheistic)) or a transcendent experience.

What is the purpose of an easing of the way out? (well I wouldn't say everyone goes out easy... but) Your right, I can't think of a good reason how it got there.

-...it always seemed a bit dark to just say that it is just a bunch of neural misfiring due to lack of oxygen which then causes hallucinations... which is a possibility...

- being religious or spiritual often brought members of a society together and occaisonally those who were not religious were persecuted... gets complex though... but that is one idea of why religion(s) exist and why we have grown to need them (perhaps we do need them for some reason)

but I also have to wonder, if there is a next life what is it like? were any of our religions (which there have been MANY ) even close?? Is there some galactic/universal energy waiting meet us? is it intellegent? did it have anything to do with the universe around us? was it always there? How many are there? Is our next life permanent? Does it pass judgement on each of by some standard? What is its standard of judgement&fairness? What exactly is our next life? or perhaps it is a permanent cycle of a reincarnation-like process? how does it work? I have so many questions in case there is another side. lmao

-...it always seemed a bit dark to just say that it is just a bunch of neural misfiring due to lack of oxygen which then causes hallucinations... which is a possibility... (or perhaps there is more of a reason to it as a function not yet discovered like you suggested)

If your death is really abrupt, then you probably won't have the experience,

Mine was...and I had the experience.

and I probably wouldn't call it a "God consciousness" as people who believe in things other than god can also have religious experiences.

Call it euphoria, bliss, ecstasy...whatever you wish. Whatever name you give it...people still experience it.

Religions have had many purposes over the context of human development...from peaceful coexistence to manipulations of the masses. I am not a religious person...but I respect religions and what people wish to believe. I believe personally that religions stemmed from the same source and have been used one way or another to manipulate for whatever purpose. I also believe that religions have valid knowledge of...well how do you want me to phrase it...consciousness beyond the human existence.

If science wants to explain it, fine...we all will eventually know.

I tend to refer to God as the Divine.

Divine: 1. vt realize something: to come to understand or realize something
2. vt discover as if supernaturally: to learn or discover something by intuition, inspiration, or other apparently supernatural means
3. vt predict something as if supernaturally: to predict something by apparently supernatural means

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

To me it is that knowledge. That is where I think religions stemmed from...just personal opinion based on my experience. Again I don't expect anyone to believe as I do...and I am open to what others believe.

If you look at history, supernatural was something unexplained and then it became natural phenomena when the knowledge was obtained. There is nothing unnatural about what people experience in death...after all, death is a natural occurrence.

"If you look at history, supernatural was something unexplained and then it became natural phenomena when the knowledge was obtained. There is nothing unnatural about what people experience in death...after all, death is a natural occurrence."

I in no way meant that something beyond-nature (whether a claim turns out to not be real or if it can be proven real) is unnatural.

"If your death is really abrupt, then you probably won't have the experience,"

"Mine was...and I had the experience."

That is pretty cool* actually or rather that fact is, (*well obviously, I would never wish harm upon you or anything!) I would have thought that the quicker the moment of death, the less of an experience the brain would produce. (Though usually the process of death & decomposition is still usually gradual even after pronounced dead)

the process of death & decomposition is still usually gradual even after pronounced dead

That's a good thing...well at least in my case. LOL

I in no way meant that something beyond-nature (whether a claim turns out to not be real or if it can be proven real) is unnatural.

I didn't take it as you were implying such...I was just elaborating on why I like the term Divine...which uses "supernatural" in the definition.

*well obviously, I would never wish harm upon you or anything!

Nor do I wish that for you.

I would have thought that the quicker the moment of death, the less of an experience the brain would produce.

I had not given it much thought prior to my death...just know what I experienced because of it.

Both of these came true.

:)

I believe we do receive messages from the other side too. (or do I dare say I know we do?) How are you and your son?

I'm so sorry for your loss CarlZup. I am so glad you find comfort in the doves! I am sure your wife is sending them your way.

Thanks, it's almost 11 years since then. For the ones whose lives continue the memories fade with time, or at least the unhappy ones should as they have for me. My son has no burden, only a vacant place that I try my best to fill with second-hand memories of her.

Actually it's all anecdotal un-confirmed stories which will of course continue since scientists are obviously morally and ethically prohibited from actually causing near death experiences. When they do study similar conditions and chemical brain reactions they don't seem to have any problem coming up with explanations for body disassosciation, tunnel vision, or hallucinations. Flicker the power on your computer, cell phone, or any other device and it'll do some unusual stuff, the brain is no different. It's a complex neuro-chemical machine and when you shut it down a persons perception which is dependent on that machine will obviously register some funky stuff.

It would be nice if I had an on/off switch...I might even like to be flickered???

out of body experiences are real!

out of body experiences does not equal proof of creationism by biblical hebrew god which is ultimately what so many are clawing to. If you agree that an out of body experience equals an after life than sequitur is creationism by the biblical hebrew god.

How does anyone come to this rationalization without a hit of acid?

Actually out of body experiences are themselves flawed when put to the test. They're beter labelled as disassosciative mind-body experiences. And while they're real in the sense that people really have them, you are no more outside your body than the hallucination of a person on an acid trip is real. The people who cling to the idea of NDE's sending you to some other dimension are directly comparable to the pseudo-scientists in the '70's that claimed drug experiences actually allowed your mind to contact other dimensions.

Hey Gordy, how is it going?

Going Ok I guess. And you?

seems that there is a lot of evidence that supports the fact that out of body experiences are real!

Have any empirical evidence to support that?

how do you explain the many OofB experiences in hospitals and these people are able to 'see' their surroundings and know what is happening?

Dreamstate, imagination, oxygen deprivation to the brain, medication interaction, sensory perception changes, subconscious vision, any/all of the above.

Minus God!

Definately minus God!

The empirical evidence is the person experiencing it.

Highly subjective and I would question the source, especially the details.

“Behold, I will make the last like the first.”
Endless amounts of books and papers are written by man explaining their independent thoughts on these matters and many accept these, along with trusting their own human thoughts and imagination, as long as the content agrees, but the many historical documents, such as the original scrolls [scriptures] provided by the Creator of mankind, containing the answers to these many questions, also presenting consequences for ones actions [accountability even if one is not caught by man] are rejected as being nothing but mere fictional fantasy of man. Interesting contradiction.

Very well stated my friend.

I understand people who doubt NDE's etc are credible as well as experiences like yours...but when I have had so many experiences that were validated by actual events I cannot turn a blind eye. But it is hard to understand something when it is not on a firsthand basis. To me it is like climbing a ladder-the first person sees what is up there...the second will follow and so forth. The one who is there is yelling down what they see but the ones on the ground doubt because they have yet to see for themselves. It is not a holier than thou attitude...it is you will see when you get there.